Song writing forms

Date: Apr 12, 2006

Song writing forms

Date: Apr 12, 2006

Oh, yeah. Now we're getting to the point. Why can't the song's flow determine the form? What's the big deal about aaba or what ever? How come we use computers and T.V.s and jets that are extremelly complicated but no one gets air play with anything more plastic than boring old song forms.

So, I need to post this song. I'll get to it after Easter, got too much to do in the mean time. But its form is interesting. It goes

intro

verse 1; verse 2

Bridge (?) in new key and new meter

verse 3

fugue (ha, ha, ha, ha. But it's real, about 11 bars)

Bridge, but longer and more worked out.

1 bar of verse material (makes you think another verse is going to start up and the song will last forever.)

Outro, very similar to intro.

All parts are very clear, but you can see it doesn't fit normal plans. It flows from the poem and it flows from the emotion of the poem.

Oops, gotta go

charlie

Date: Apr 12, 2006

Nothing is keeping anyone from writing in a non standard format. I think most artists realize that the music industry is reluctant to sell anything other than cookie cutter songs to the public. The fear being that the public is uninterested in anything thought provoking or unique. Every once in a while, a really great song comes along that blows that theory out of the water but all to often its business as usual. As much as we all enjoy these songs when they happen, lets not forget that there are many great songs that do follow the standard ABAB here we go again pattern and still deliver originality and substance. A lot of artists get a little self indulgent and lazy when it comes to writing music and insist they are misunderstood or under appreciated because they are different. Quite often its just not good enough to be appreciated. I applaud anyone who strives for originality regardless of the format. Good songs are good songs!

Date: Apr 13, 2006

I am not a great musician or songwriter, but I have a pretty good pulse on what makes a song good. There are two particular comments I would like to key in on, and give you my take as a "typical" listener.

Steve Hanlon said "Are we in the age of Gnat-like attention spans and does our music writing reflect it?"
tjw said "I think most artists realize that the music industry is reluctant to sell anything other than cookie cutter songs to the public. The fear being that the public is uninterested in anything thought provoking or unique. Every once in a while, a really great song comes along that blows that theory out of the water but all to often its business as usual."

I think both comments are valid, but not entirely accurate. I would introduce a third consideration that is somewhat tied to both of these ideas: The average listener wants to feel a good groove. They want to get into the flow of the song so to speak. They don't want sudden and frequent changes. This is disruptive when you are just trying to enjoy a song. This is why I don't like Appendix. Yes, I know, they are masterful musicians and they are ingenious, but the reason not everyone is blown away by them is that they are hard to listen to. And, no, we don't all have to treat music like it is some fine wine to be savored and mediated upon. Some of us just like to listen to entertaining songs, even if they are fluffy pop (a la Can't Buy Me Love). However, there are a few who have broken the standard format and had some great stuff that was ALSO radio friendly. Steve Hanlon did a great job with A Brisa. Bohemian Rhapsody is another one, as mentioned in this thread. However, I will say that this song is also 6 minutes long. Which leads to my point: I think people would embrace songs with a "non-standard" format if the song is long enough to make the transitions well. Unfortunately, 12 minute songs can only be pulled off by Meatloaf (joke) and the radio won't play them becusse they are so long. I don't think the average listener is uninterested in a thought provoking or unique song, they just don't want it crammed down thier throats in 3 minutes. Dont get me wrong, I think Big Radio and Big MTV is trying to force crap on us that we have no interest in.

Another point of consideration, sometimes things are the way they are because they work best that way. The standard format just happens to work really well.

Thanks for reading my rambling.

Date: Apr 13, 2006

Meatloaf and Jim Steinman are no joke, my friend.....

Date: Apr 13, 2006

Steve Hanlon did Bohemian Rapsody?

Boy he is good,

Jack

Date: Apr 13, 2006

Wm,

You seemed to focus on only one part of what I said. You missed the part where I said a good song is a good song regardless of the format, that includes standard formats! You are correct in your thinking that sometimes people just want to hear a groove and not think to hard. Music should be fun but sometimes music on top 40 radio is not fun,... its boring! Maybe I'm to old to appreciate the fun in hearing what amounts to the same song being played all day long. Music does not have to be a life altering experience to be good, after all, I admidt it, I like oatmeal for breakfast,... just not every day!

Date: Apr 14, 2006

http://www.ascap.com/nashville/murphy/murphy19.html

A break down of all the components of the top 40 songs, what worked and what worked better. Place it on most American genre and it should still hold true.

Jack O'Brien

Date: Apr 14, 2006

I think there is a small element of songwriters striving to radio-ize their songs, no doubt.

BUT, I also think that the typical compact song structure comes from listening more than anything else. The reason no one writes D E or F sections of a song (unless it's a movement) is because you probably haven't heard it done before, at least not lately. Queen could do it, but that was a different time. Of course, if all you listen to is "Bohemian Rhapsody" and "Paradise By the Dashboard Light," and songs of that nature, you'll probably start writing songs with movements as well. It's all about what you surround yourself with; we become what we consume.

Of course I also totally agree that our attention spans have evolved to mere specks of time, but I blame that on television. (Pay attention to the next commercial break and how fast the screen changes images; it's sickening.)

Date: Apr 14, 2006

1. I love Meatloaf (the food and the performer).

2. TJW, sorry for the oversight on my part when you said "...lets not forget that there are many great songs that do follow the standard ABAB here we go again pattern and still deliver originality and substance." That was much of what I was trying to say, but delivered in a much more concise and coherent manner.

3. Also, TJW, if you have to say "Maybe I'm too old..." then you are.

Date: Apr 14, 2006

WM,

Meatloaf is pretty good, and if you remember him err,... or it,... "YOU" are probably to old too! If you are a song writter, keep plugging away and have fun with it!

Date: Apr 21, 2006

Haiku has been around a long time and nobody seems to be bored of it. I think there are lyrical rhythms that are deep within our dna that cause a standard progression to sound "right" to us.