How to do you write your songs

SteveHanlon · Veteran Member

How to do you write your songs

Jack · Senior Member

More often then not I begin with a song title. If the title is good it can aid me in the development of the song.

Then...

SteveHanlon · Veteran Member

do you ever do research for your songs?

How about odd habits while in the process?

I read somehere that Paul Simon bounces a tennis ball off of a wall while he's coming up with lyrics.

Jeff and Debbie · Veteran Member

I tend to agree with Jack, A great title at the top of the page is an excellent tool for keeping the lyrics focused on one solid point. In some Magic Moments it can almost write the song for you. Next I look for a good hook, this is generally the title , but not always. I find the best hooks in everyday conversation. They are endless and everywhere you turn. As far as structure is concerned, I understand it well enough not to really think about it while I'm writing the initial draft, I just let the thoughts come as they may. After that I kind of cut and paste the best lines together into solid form. By the time I get to this point, I have been playing around with a melody so I try singing it as song a few times. If I feel awkward parts, I go back and rewrite. Then I just keep singing it for a while (Days - Weeks) letting it simmer.

If it doesn't feel done, I re-write again.

There is no cut and dried way to write a song, and no (one way) any writer does it everytime.

Jeff Miller

Jeff and Debbie · Veteran Member

SteveHanlon wrote:

do you ever do research for your songs? How about odd habits while in the process? I read somehere that Paul Simon bounces a tennis ball off of a wall while he's coming up with lyrics.

Yes, I did extensive reserch on my Alaskan Trilogy. The Main Charactor ( Juneau Rose ) is fictitional, but the rest of the story is all solidly based on true historical facts. As a matter of fact, I am trying to complete a movie script, based on that story.

I think I vaguely remember the story about Paul Simon and the tennis ball, but I believe it was in reference to how he got his inspiration for one paticular song he wrote. Can anyone help me out here? ( I don't think I would call that a habit. )

Jeff Miller

Jack · Senior Member

I suppose using a legal pad and pencil could be considered a habit.

And then I smoke pot...

-- Edited by Jack at 18:27, 2006-08-18

SteveHanlon · Veteran Member

I get the feeling like the guitar (or piano) doesn't necessarily enter in until later for you guys (though I know, as Jeff said, there is no ONE way). Interesting, if that is the case. As if you're handling the song's message with as much care as possible, first.

Also you mention starting with the title. I don't think I've have ever done that. What I fear most about song writing is having nothing poignant to say. So I can imagine having a great title and then feeling stuck about what I feel about it. Maybe that's where a little "research" can dig up some feelings though.

I feel some of my best melodic and chordal ideas come when I'm just improving on the guitar. A quick grab of the microcassette recorder to put the idea down and then eventually figuring WHAT TO SAY with that melody.

Coffee Anon · Senior Member

Funny you would say that Jeff, because I often write with a piano or guitar.

This is my informal process-
I do a lot of traveling, most of my ideas are conceived in the car or on an airplane. Zoned out, mind wandering, that sort of thing. Clarity, really.

I tend to come up with a skeleton, a hook, a feel, a part of a melody, and then fill it out later. I'll write it down, lose it, then struggle to remember it.

Once in the studio, I'll either pick up a guitar or sit at the piano, write out what I have, with chords, and start refining. I'm of the mindset that getting something down to fill in the space is better than leaving a fragment. I don't get attached to lyrics. If need be, I just write out prose that tells the story the way I see it, backing in to the rhymes and meter later.

Finally, I spend some time recording it, trying different things, which can spur other moments of creativity. Several times I have taken a finished song in to my studio, only to come out with something completely different.

Of course, I never said I was any good at this...

Amanda · Member

And we don't know who you are Coffee Anon, so how could we tell?

Jack · Senior Member

You interested in the topic Amanda or just trying to drum up business?

Coffee Anon · Senior Member

Who'd of thought the Australian tourism board would engage in forum spamming? Amanda, how could you? I'm so dissappointed! What would your mum think?

Amanda · Member

Doesn't take much to touch a nerve around here, wow!

Amanda · Member

Coffee Anon wrote:

Who'd of thought the Australian tourism board would engage in forum spamming?

How on earth do you figure I am spamming? Because there's a link to Australia in my profile? Are you kidding me? What a strange lot here, honestly.

SteveHanlon · Veteran Member

Coffee Anon wrote:

Funny you would say that Jeff, because I often write with a piano or guitar.

This is my informal process-
I do a lot of traveling, most of my ideas are conceived in the car or on an airplane. Zoned out, mind wandering, that sort of thing. Clarity, really.

I tend to come up with a skeleton, a hook, a feel, a part of a melody, and then fill it out later. I'll write it down, lose it, then struggle to remember it.

Once in the studio, I'll either pick up a guitar or sit at the piano, write out what I have, with chords, and start refining. I'm of the mindset that getting something down to fill in the space is better than leaving a fragment. I don't get attached to lyrics. If need be, I just write out prose that tells the story the way I see it, backing in to the rhymes and meter later.

Finally, I spend some time recording it, trying different things, which can spur other moments of creativity. Several times I have taken a finished song in to my studio, only to come out with something completely different.

Of course, I never said I was any good at this...

coffee, that sounds A LOT like my experience as well.

Some of my best ideas have been when I riding my motorscooter (That's the popular mode of transport here). And in my helmet, I'm singing, rapping, scatting top ten hits, man! It's the shiznik for sure.

But once I get home...nothing...all ideas gone.

If I could just rig that helmet up to have a built-in recorder...but then again once I knew I was being recorded it would all fall apart.

Oh well...

Jeff and Debbie · Veteran Member

As I Said, there is no one way I write a song everytime. I too find interesting melodies while practicing on my guitar or piano., but generally speaking, I have a harded time finding the right lyrics to go with that music, than finding the right music to go to a good set of lyrics. That's just me.

Once I have a solid verse (and-or) chorus, I then have a sence of the meter the song will take. That's when I begin playing with the melody. I rarely, if ever, wait till the lyrics are complete to start writing the music. Both parts of the songs end up finishing together, or at least close.

Occasionally, some new lyrics will fall into place on some of my prewriten music, just not as often - for me.

SteveHanlon · Veteran Member

Jeff and Debbie wrote:

but generally speaking, I have a harded time finding the right lyrics to go with that music, than finding the right music to go to a good set of lyrics. That's just me.

That's my on-going dilemma and even more so because i feel more comfortable coming up wih the music side of song writing. So, I get lots of music ideas and then, figuring out what that melody/chord scenario is supposed to say, is the hard part.

And no doubt when I'm passed lyrics first, I'm able to work easily, unless the lyrics are really free flowing (unmetered) poetry/verse...then...well, it's Joni Mitchell style writing, which is definitely nice to work with, but a lot more of a challenge, IMO.

Jeff and Debbie · Veteran Member

Steve, I understand your frustration Totally. I am not a good lyricists. I struggle all the time. Every chance I get, I depend on other peoples lyrics. I just want to write the music.

Jeffrey

Coffee Anon · Senior Member

Hi Amanda-
I meant no offense. Clearly, if you can't link america, australia is a great alternative. Still-why link a country at all? Websites are free now? Can't you just get a myspace account?

Amanda · Member

I set a link to australia.com in my profile when I joined. You call that forum spamming. That's as deep as the water runs Miss Anon. I don't understand the twisted motivation behind your posts but I do have faith that modern medicine will be successful in treating your condition.

Warning: Taking advantage of the website link option within your profile is considered forum spamming. It's just a trick. Don't use it.

Coffee Anon · Senior Member

Right. OK.

You just don't seem to get that we've seen a lot of spam like that , (reference Jack's "I miss the porn" thread), before you were here. So if we erred, maybe you'll just have to let it go. There's no right or wrong link to put in your profile. If you're not here to gum up the works with spam-THAT'S GREAT.
Besides-turn off your content filtering and Google some artists names from this site and Australia seems very much white bread by comparison...
Enjoy the search everyone! Or if you are easily offended, please don't!

Amanda · Member

I simply don't have time for such idiocy. Your search is ridiculous and would embarrass you if you did the numbers. Good luck with your condition.

New Edit ... Just a side note as it is obvious you are woefully lacking in cognitive abilities. Your quote: "we've seen a lot of spam like that" A link in a profile? Think about what you are saying. Also, Jack's "missing the porn" topic had nothing to do with profile links. (Cognitive instability in action.) Next quote: "So if we erred, maybe you'll just have to let it go" We? You used "we" in both quotations. You are part-owner of this website are you? Or are you referring to other members as a collection of spam receipients? It has only been you pushing the nonsensical spam notion, you could at least stand up to that.

Frankly I've never run across such ludicrous behaviour at a songwriting site before. I see by previous posts that you have been at this for a long time. Very strange indeed, not to mention cowardly. Near as I can tell, you are the only member who has participated in the forums while refusing to identify his/herself musically. That alone reveals a stunning truth. I really do wish you well because whatever has caused you to act so bitterly towards others surely will be difficult to overcome. I will leave you with this challenge since you seem to enjoy them so much. Admit who you are and reveal the songs you have uploaded to this website. Failure to do so will reveal many, many things, not the least of which is a nonexistent confidence level. It is easy to critisize other's work when you can pretend that yours is above theirs; not so easy when you reveal the truth. Pay close attention members. Coffee Anon has been playing you for a long time. Will she let you know what she really has, or does the condition cause the height of arrogance. You shall see soon. I will not, because I will not be here. Good luck to you all.

-- Edited by Amanda at 18:42, 2006-08-30

Coffee Anon · Senior Member

Hello Ms. Hugandkiss-

All the tunes you posted under the name "amanda" are just fabulous. I especially liked the Didgeridoo solos…

By the way, I'm a guy. The moniker "Coffee Anon" is a nod to Kofi Annan, the always entertaining Secretary General of the United Nations, he's a guy too. Duhhhhh. See how that works?

I used the plural nominative pronoun "we" in my previous post because everyone at AW had to put up with a lot of spam for months, before the site required logins. "We" implies no ownership. It merely describes the people who posted to the forums here in the midst of the spamming, a group of which I was a part but you were not. So much for your Psych 100 analysis of my use of the pronoun "we."

The entire "missing the porn" thread was a reference to spam that you can no longer see, it was removed. So how in the hell would you know what the spam looked like or what form it took? You weren't even here!

I mentioned Googling members simply to imply, and correctly so, that you don't factually know who anyone is out here. It is the web, after all, genius. You claimed to have searched very hard to find Jeff Miller's published work, for example. Why is it different, then, when I Google someone? Are you privileged somehow? I can't apply your standard? Don't even pretend that you haven't Googled me. I know better. Just like I know you'll be back. You can't resist.

The "stunning truth" about my identity is not that stunning at all. Coffee Anon is my nom de plume, that's all you need to know. Obviously, if I wanted you to know who I am, I wouldn't have a pen name. Your feigned indignance and inexplicable overreaction to a very small point is met head on by my complete indifference to your point of view. I am the first to admit that I'm not in the league of Mark Twain, Mary Westmacott, Carter Dickson, Cecil Adams, Richard Bachman, Joseph Conrad, etc., yet I reserve the right to protect my privacy and to express my views without colouring the responses I get to my other more important work. Translation: Ultimatum denied. You do not define the terms of my existence.

Coffee Anon · Senior Member

BTW-
My apologies to everyone if I always end up getting in a grudge match in these forums. I don't know why I attract such anger. I wish I could somehow profit from it!

BC · Senior Member

I usually write while driving. Inspiration hits and I basically just start singing like I've already heard the tune. It typically takes less than 15 minutes from start to finish. I don't have the attention span to labor over an idea. This process has almost gotten me killed more than once. I remember doing 70 in heavy traffic in Queens while writing a song -- there was no place to pull over and I HAD to get the words on paper before they dissapeared.

SteveHanlon · Veteran Member

yes, driving for me does it as well. I found a voice recorder in my cell phone and that's proven good for grabbing ideas.

Microcassette recorder or one of those USB recorders would work as well.

It seems if my mind is on other things then the "uninhibited me" comes out. Though when I hit record on my cell phone then I sometimes have to reconstruct some of the parts. Something about my conscious doing that gets in my way. But it's better to catch something than nothing.

Coffee Anon · Senior Member

Interesting BC- I've done the same, though not in Queens.

BC · Senior Member

I've tried the recorder thing too and I've had the same experience as Steve. Something about putting some gadget between me and the creative process seems to act like a filter, or worse, a wall. There's also the fact that we never sound as good on a little voice recorder as we do in our heads. The stark reality of the playback can be enough to squash a decent song idea before it really gets off the ground.

Coffee Anon · Senior Member

Seems to be a common thread. I bought one for that purpose years ago-it's in the junk drawer in my kitchen now. Never worked out for me either.

SharonO · Senior Member

Amanda - drop me an email some time: sharon@rsg-services.com

Jlamont · Veteran Member

We write from various perspectives. Usually Doug has an idea or has written a line and we try to find a way to say it. We try to keep the lyrical mood in mind! If the song is optimistic, then we try to make the music reflect that! Sometimes we have a hook or lick and we just write around that, but we almost always start with the written word and try to give it life!

we are aware of standard song forms and usually try to use these as they are inventions that have worked, but not always. some lyrical lines or melodies require a bit of customizing. It all depends on taste. it also depends on the motive of the writer. some writers experiment with form and structure and find whole new ways to say stuff, If you have an idea, try it! If you/ve worn out the A B A style forms, then invent your own! there 's never a wrong way for the right listener! canon form is an archaic form that's almost never used in today's music but is still a valid form nonetheless! As is counterpoint, but could get really complicated if you let it!

Basically speaking, If you like, write it!!

Joe Lamont

Doug DeJoe and The BloomLaters